Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? This is the third entry in a three-part series deconstructing popular illustrations that pastors give their congregations, all of which might sound good or spiritual, but do not correspond to history or reality. He must be alive. If it was consistently translated as 'eternal' people would see how ridiculous that idea is. Is that decree retroactive?". 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The earliest explicit reference to the valley as a garbage dump is from the twelfth century AD, but circumstantial evidence in Jeremiah suggests this probably was true even in his time. activies, not statements of faith). This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. He quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. Now I know why I never found any. Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. That little valley is a likely spot. Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. Thanks for posting. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. Gehenna was not a perpetually burning trash dump." . Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. If that seems unfair in your eyes, so be it . Check out Matt 25:46. It was an interesting article and I am glad that you were not trying to disprove eternal punishment though at least one person wanted to think otherwise. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. Case in point, Jude 1:7 it says that Sodom and Gomorrah served as example of those who will suffer the punishment of "eternal fire". Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? But you making another mistake: so seem to think that if Jude and Ezekiel contradicted each other, such a contradiction could be solved by your screwed universalist theology. goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". Eternal life doesn't mean that there is no time just as it doesn't mean there is no space. GEHENNA ga-hen'-a (geenna (see Grimm-Thayer, under the word)): Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. Same with "aionian life". "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. Matt. This is then used as an example of a future judgment. Even if I couldn't convince you, I am glad that you got something out of it. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. All the while, under the surface, the fire still burned, devouring the putrid garbage days and weeks past. "the worm never dies" how do you turn never into "sometime in the future"? It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. But note that Sodom has not returned to its former state, so I doubt your literalist reading is correct. Ezekiel indeed prophesies that Sodom, Samaria and Juda would return to their former state. At least there is no evidence of any other fires having been kept up in the valley; as has sometimes been supposed(Biblical Researches, vol. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.. The Valley of Hinnom ( Hebrew: , romanized : G en-Hnnm, lit. For all those who think that the 2 times eternal in Mat.25:46 must be the same is talking nonsense,in 5 other verses it also happens and in those it cannot be the same at all.Romans 16:25-26 and Titus 1:2 and Galatians 1:4-5 and Ephesians 3:9-11 and 1 Timothes 6:17-19 So how you explain that hell is pagan nonsense God is love!!! I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. According to Chan and Sprinkle "The first reference we have to the Hinnom Valley, or Gehenna, as a town dump is made by a rabbi named David Kimhi in a Commentary, which was written in AD 1200." We should also note that there is no archeological evidence of Gehenna as a garbage dump. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator's logic, but does not accept it. It does not need to be quenched. The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? I am disturbed by the anger and name-calling of the resident I am sure he will give the usual excuses. I've used this illustration many times. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me, says the LORD. Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. The rest of the world will not "suffers unimaginable torment for eternity" the world will be with God, whose judgement is just, even in regard to the damned. And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. (Actually it says "from one new moon to IT'S next", meaning the same new moon one year later)Time is clearly still in view in this context. The chastisement is in reference to the Second Death, which can't be eternal if we are to take any of the passages about death itself being destroyed literally. 20:10. Todd Bolen, from his bibleplaces blog, rounds up some scholarly sources. It is translated "hell" every time. You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. According to the Jewish scholar David Kimhi (c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E. I don't believe that and I don't believe the last commenter does either. Click the card to flip . No council ever did that! It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. (the Romans emphasized justice and were very PROUD of their legal system) I had heard sermons for 40 years, had read the bible cover to cover several times, went to bible studies, listened to countless teaching tapes, and in all that time no one, myself included, noticed any contradiction between Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:55. There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. Dig down into and youll find evidence if garbage, followed by a ruined temple and burnt child sacrifices. It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". The explanation for the fire of Gehenna lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. In Hebrew, the Valley of Hinnom was 'Ge Hinnom' which transliterated into Greek became 'Gehenna.' Because of its history of infant sacrifice and idol worship, the area was associated with desecration, abominable fires . One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. Gender matters: women and religion, 1960-2000, Barbara Brown Zikmund. One is kolasin, the other timoria. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. "age-during" isn't a word but if you are insisting on such literalist readings, you should be consistent and take things literally. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/, Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). Its fires were kept continually burning (an everlasting lake of fire!) Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". The first results in being in danger of the "judgement". Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. What has that got to do with it. It is part and parcel with the place that we normally call Hell. 1 [1841], 404-5). Same with fire. Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. Who in their right mind would want to cross over? Everything! The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. Explore the mistranslations and actual meanings of eternal and hell (aion, gehenna/hades/tartaroo/sheol). Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. A longer one, written by Sinclair Ferguson: Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. This practice was carried out . And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. Some people use this historical tidbit to make a point either to paint a picture how foul, vivid and terrible hell would be, or alternately to suggest that there is no eternal hell, and the references Jesus makes to the fires of hell and torment was simply a reference to this burning trash pile. It ensured total destruction. [.] What a waste of time this would mean. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught.]. This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. The fire never went out. See Joachim Jeremias Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, p. 44. Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. If He only referred to Gehenna itself, a garbage dump that was used as an incinerator outside the city of Jerusalem, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Jesus' time had nothing to do with the judgment of Gehenna. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. Where is the record of an uproar over them? Anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. We are not all doomed as so many believe. Though a duration of time is the most common use of the word, just as with most any word, there can be different meanings depending on the context. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. Again, the torment is the separation. 129-30), Theres only one problem. That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, his hearers would think of the valley of rotting, worm-infested garbage, where the fire always burned, smoke always lingered, and if the wind blew just right, a smell that sickened the sense wafted in the air. (pp. This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. Is that decree retroactive? The only exception was the 5th Ecumenical Council (around 550), which posthumously condemned not just (some or all) teachings of Theodorus and of Origen but condemned them personally. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. "Six seminaries" did not exist. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ). James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentators logic, but does not accept it. Why consider them 'saints'? Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. 1. garbage dump - a piece of land where waste materials are dumped. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail. In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. It is a widespread misconception by twisting around this or that word in the bible, you suddenly can change the content of the Christian faith. 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